The Myth of Internet Fame, Popularity and the Elusive Clique

[orikes]

Even though the drama has died down, the whole Sim Secret rant on 'cliquey' Boolprop authors has been occupying a place in my meandering brain. While I know the secret was meant to be hurtful, it didn't really bother me other than raising an eyebrow. I survived high school as the 'fat kid', so I've got a pretty thick skin as far as this type of schoolyard bullying goes. Actually, I'm more interested in the whole thing from a an almost academic perspective. Thinking about it, there are several layers to the whole subject that are interesting to ponder.

First, there's the very idea that I'm 'famous'. That any of us are 'famous'. I write a Sims2 story that's fairly popular for what it is, but it's still a story being told about and by little pixel people in my computer. Not to belittle mine or anyone's effort, but this isn't going to be winning anyone a Pulitzer prize. I'm proud of the work I put into the story and the product that I've put out and I think there are Sims2 authors out there doing absolutely amazing things with their stories, but this is still a very specialized 'genre'.

As Robin pointed out in Ruby's blog, this fame is also a very localized thing even if you look at within the Sims2 community as a whole. There are so many separate little communities within the whole of Sims2 fandom that it's silly to think that there's anyone whose internet fame transcends through the entire 'community'. Perhaps some of the modders (like Pescado or Squinge or TwoJeffs) or some of the cc creators (like Nouk or Peggy or Aikea Guinea) might qualify, but story writing covers a vast spectrum of individual interests. Not everyone who reads Sims stories is going to be interested in the same thing. A while ago, there was some drama over the whole legacy vs. non-legacy stories on the Exchange. Just because someone writes a 'popular' legacy doesn't mean they're famous. Not in the slightest.

And even if it did mean actual, honest to goodness fame, I'm still the same person I was before my stories got popular. I have to go to work five days a week for a paycheck to pay my bills. I still haven't finished my Bachelor degree and I probably never will. I still have to do laundry. My house is a mess. I have to clean the cat box on a regular basis. If I don't, my house smells. You'd think that this mystical aura of fame would at least take care of cleaning the darn cat box.

Despite all of this (stinky cat box included), there are still people who start publishing Sims stories with the goal of becoming 'famous'. They want someone to wave a magic wand over their keyboard and instantly have their story put them in the upper echelons with Candy and Toast and whoever else they consider famous. They're not writing the story because they want or need to write the story, they're writing it because they see it as a vehicle to popularity.

Now, I've thought about this long and hard and I came to an interesting conclusion that some might call hypocritical. I realized that if I was getting no feedback whatsoever on the Pseudo Legacy, I would have given up a long time ago. I'm coming up on my two year anniversary for the ongoing story, but if I didn't have a spectacular support group of people offering me feedback and encouragement, I'd have let the whole thing fade and just gone back to playing the game without publishing my stories.

Even though some pieces of art are created in a very private, solitary process, most artists still need some sort of response or feedback to keep going. Most of us need to know that we're not putting our creations out there into a vacuum where it's lost in the ether with no one ever being the wiser to its existence. Painters want their work to hang on a wall where it will be seen and admired. Authors want their stories to be read and discussed. Actors want their performances to be seen and applauded. This is a natural piece of the whole art of creation.

That said, it can't be the ONLY reason that someone creates something. If I only published my story for the adulation a new update receives, I'd have given up long ago. Putting these stories together is HARD. There has to be something more there than just the praise of a few people on the internet. This is where I think some of the more fame-hungry authors miss the boat.

I've whined about how hard it is for me to buckle down and actually write my updates. The playing is easy, the picture taking is fun, the scene staging is challenging, and the image editing is cake. But the writing... I'm lucky I have any teeth left in my head with as hard as that can be for me. As I've said in the past, I think my writing comes out good in the end, but it's not EASY. I actually have to work at it to get it right. If all I wanted out of this was a few nice words about my pretty pictures, I could get involved in the photo competitions and call it a day. That's not what this is about, though. I WANT to tell a story. I want the people reading my story to laugh at the funny bits. I want them to cry during the heartbreaking moments. I want the story to be so involving that people are drawn into it and they MUST know what happens next. I want them to care as much about my characters as I do. Sure, I like the nice things people say when I upload a new episode, but I'm more concerned with finding out if I did my job as an artist and author right.

While I also need the comments and the feedback to keep going, there's a reason I tell new authors that they have to do it because they WANT to do it, not because they want some elusive, mythical fame. Whatever that motivation is, it can't be as simple as just wanting popularity. There has to be more there. Write your story because you want to create something, not because you view it as a ticket to some special club.

So, while the fame is a lie (mmm, cake), that doesn't prevent a few people from believing it anyway. That leads to two things that I actually do find bothersome.

First, stalkers. I'm not, thankfully, talking about the type that casually shows up at your door and secretly loves you so much they want to wear your skin as a hat, but there's still something disturbing and unnerving about fawning praise from someone you've never met before in your life. Sometimes these 'stalkers' are just young and enthusiastic kids who don't really know any better. Sometimes they are people who should know better and are all the more creepy for it. Regardless, I can understand why they scare some people off from continuing their stories. I usually try and keep some distance from people like this while still staying polite. It's a very tough balancing act. You don't want to encourage them, but you don't want to be rude.

The other end of the spectrum are the people who backlash against the popularity, as if it was undeserving and granted by some unseen social police force. I suppose this happens with anything that people consider 'over-hyped', but I despise the underlying message that those of us that are successful were undeserving and are only 'popular' because of the people we know. I know how much work I put into my stories and I know how much work other authors put into their stories. The majority of 'popular' authors all put a great deal of work into making their stories and it shows with each update

This leads me to the whole concept of the boolprop clique. A clique is, to quote dictionary.com, 'a small, exclusive group of people; coterie; set'. The key word there is exclusive. That would mean that this metaphorical clique doesn't let just anyone enter. That's honestly the farthest thing from the truth.

Yes, there is a group of authors on boolprop that offer feedback and support in an interconnected network. But the last thing in the world this group could be called is exclusive. The so called membership of this group is constantly growing and changing, and I guarantee if you asked any one person perceived as being a member, they'd give you a different list of people they consider part of it. From my perspective, the group is a large collection of people whose work and opinions I appreciate and respect. I want their opinion on my work because I know they'll give me feedback that makes me a better creator. Some of them are people I count loosely as friends. Some are folks who I simply respect. The key point, though, is that the 'membership' is always changing.

DocNerd just had her one year anniversary, but I didn't start reading the Vetinari Dualegacy until sometime this past spring. Some of her posts intrigued me, so I read it, liked it, and started talking with her. It was a very natural progression. Earlier this summer, I decided to give Jamie's 'Bohemian Legacy' a try. In the beginning, her enthusiasm was a bit overwhelming and a little scary (no offense, Jamie), but I realized what she was saying was interesting and I was hearing good things about her story. I finally gave it a try and it was wonderful. Now I count her as one of the people whose opinion I look forward to when I come out with something new. Even more recently, I fell in love with Di's 'Victorian Legacy'. Now she's also part of the extended network of authors I keep an eye on and respect. I don't see how it can be termed a clique if there's always new faces joining the mix.

Boolprop is NOT an exclusive forum. The last thing in the world that the board tries to be is exclusionary. Anyone is welcome to join in any of the threads in the chat areas (legacy, apocalypse, random sim2, etc.) and comments in story threads often turn into conversations. Many of the authors I have looked up and become fans of started as people who made intelligent, interesting comments in the threads I was reading. In fact, I think MOST of them were found that way. Professor Butters, Sarah, Stacie, WriterTina, Ndainye, and so many more.

There's no secret password. There's no secret meeting to determine membership. Honestly. I just wish the people that are jealous could see this. It would certainly help improve their blood pressure at least.

Comments

[fleetfootmike.livejournal.com]

From the uk,music.guitar infobot:

clique; n: group of people who disagree with the original poster
cult of personality; n. phrase: people agreeing with someone original poster doesn't like.

:)

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

Hah.. That's awesome. :) And soooo true when taking the psychology of the 'intarwebs' into account.

How are you, by the way? I miss getting to chat with you on a regular basis.

[ndainye.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with everything you said here.

I'm on my third published legacy, the first one went no where fast primarily because I knew nothing about the sims community other than there's this thing called the legacy challenge. Around generation eight I joined one community and picked up a few readers but I never had more than five comments on a chapter.

After the Donovan's were finished I joined boolprop and started another legacy with a slightly odd twist. I think I was one of the first people doing side by side legacies. I suddenly had readers and that scared me. No longer was I just playing a game I liked and documenting what happened for myself. Eventually I burnt out on H&V, on legacies and on the sims in general and walked away in generation F. I spent more than six months fully immersed in World of Warcraft and ignoring the sims community completely. When I came back some people remembered me, but the community had changed drastically there were lots of new people, with new stories and new ideas.

When I started doing FF I had some of the 'old gang' that read and commented but aside from Sarah who was the very first commenter for FF I was pretty much starting from scratch in what felt like a very different sandbox than the one I'd previously played in. I'll admit to having some jealousy over the new kids popularity. Enough to get curious and to start reading to see what all the hype was about.

It bugs me when people post threads with questions that boil down to how do I become 'famous'. There's lots of variations of the I wanna be famous topics and I avoid those like the plague because my first response wants to be:

'Play in a way that's enjoyable for you and write something that you want to read. If you are lucky you'll find other that agree.'

[fireflowersims.livejournal.com]

I remember the Donovans! Oh, man, I haven't thought about them in eons. (Great namesake, btw. Enchanted is one of my favorite Nora Roberts books. Overall the MacGregors and Quinns are my favorite families, though. /geekery) And I still miss Heroes and Villains. Arch was awesome.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

I've gotten a lot less patient with the 'how do I become famous' posts. I still try and be encouraging, especially since the majority of people posting those threads are just young kids. The ones that really irk me are the ones that I know are adults, but they still whine about ratings and the like. There's one poster in particular who makes me grind my teeth every time I see her name come up.

I really like your statement, though. It's so true and I think it's something all the successful authors catch onto to keep them in the game, so to speak.

[dgjamie.livejournal.com]

Haha, yeah, I know I can be recklessly enthusiastic about things sometimes, I really can't help it I'm an upbeat person, it's just who I am. Sorry if that was weird for you :)

I don't read simsecret much because I find bitching pointless and upsetting. But I heard there was some sort of Drama, although I'm still not entirely sure what happened.
Regarding the question of 'cliques' I think that it's much easier for a clique, or the impression of a clique, to be perceived by someone who is supposedly an 'outsider' in it. I've never ever considered that I've been in a clique personally but I've had other people consider that I was. In high school practically all my very close friends did art and drama with me and as a result on a school day or a rehersal day I spent anywhere from 6 to 11 hours in their company and so we naturally became very close and started to hang out together outside of school etc. It wasn't until later that we found out that some of our other classmates considered us to be a bit of an 'artsy clique' (although there is no word for 'clique' in french) and felt a little intimidated and alienated when we all dragged ourselves into class with our giant portfolios under our arms. We never meant to exclude anyone and we never did really but beause of their perception of us from a point of view of non art or drama people we were sort of 'cool' and intimidating to them. To me this was just my group of friends and if anyone knew joined the drama club or switched into the art class we were more than happy to make new friends. Then I realized that looking back I remembered completely idolizing all the established drama kids who were in their senior year in high school when I was just starting, and then next thing I knew we were the senior kids being given the good parts and being idolized by the little new kids even though I still considered that I wasn't half as good an actress as the kids who had been seniors when I started.
Now I don't do drama in University because I hate hate hate hate the vibe that the Cambridge Amateur Dramatics Club gives off. It's hugely cliquey, everyone knows everyone, you don't get a part pretty much unless you're already someone in the Cambridge Theatre world and they have this annoying mentality of 'we breed stars' which while true (All of the Monty Pythons, Hugh Laurie, Stephen Fry etc. came out of the ADC theatre) is still not something to feel superior about. And I will admit that this annoyance of mine at the ADC is probably due in large part to jealousy because I'm not in and I know I'm not in and I've had it suck in some people who I considered friends and then who got too high and mighty because they knew they were 'in'. So I think there are cliques that know they are cliques and put themselves on a pedestal and 'cliques', or maybe more appropriately 'groups' that don't realize they are and get put on a pedestal by the people not in them.

Sometimes there are cliques that don't even want to be cliques but are. In middle school I was in what I guess you'd call the advanced class. Every other class in school perceived us as cliquey. Supposedly we thought we were better than they were, or smarter or some such untrue nonsense because we'd gotten into that class, and that we thought we were too good to hagd out with them. So we were shunned by alot of people and ultimately I guess we did become cliquey because everyone else was really bitchy about us. All I can think that this was jealousy. And I could now tell tehm for a fact that there was nothing to be jealous of. Apart from it being something to put on college applications there really was no benefit. We had teachers specifically tell us we were graded more harshly because they expected more of us, we even stopped liking each other after a while because we were so hyper competitive about grades! But people thought we were a clique, were jealous and bitchy about it and so we had no choice to become one.

I guess what I'm trying to say in a very long and rambling way is that when you're 'in' sometimes you don't even realize it, and you're seeing something completely different than if you're standing on the outside.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

Reclessly enthusiastic is a good way to put it. :) It wasn't so much that it was weird for me as I wasn't sure if you were one of those stalkers that might want to wear my face as a hat. ;) Once you'd settled into Boolprop and I stopped being so paranoid, I realized that you were cool.

High school was a pretty rough time for me, but I'm so far removed from it at this point that it's a bit mind boggling to see people applying the same thought process to boolprop. It's actually rather ironic that I've been accused of being one of the popular kids in the cool clique. I know it's all perception and what someone who thinks they're on the outside believes they're seeing, but still. It's rather silly. :)

[honorkid54.livejournal.com]

I love touching on this subject.

I know that I don't have as many readers as you Orikes, but, over the past few months of being at BoolProp, I've definitely learned some things. When I joined, I had every intention of "the magic fairy coming to wave her wand on my keyboard and make my legacy famous." I didn't really care about writing the story, I just wanted people to read. I really wanted to make a good impression, no matter how good (or bad) the story was.

Aspiring to that strongly, I began taking writer's workshop, aiming to improve my writing skills for both schoolwork, and the legacy. Well, I learned some pretty good words of wisdom there. First, not all readers write, but all writers read. If you want people to appreciate your work, you've got to take some time off to read other legacies, instead of always focusing on your own, and make time to appreciate the writing of others. Another thing; You have to love what your writing. After joining BoolProp, and spending a few months there, I truly learned my true purpose in writing A Fairytale Legacy; not so I could bask in the glory of fame that don't need, and probably won't get; it's about the story I write, and loving every single word, every single picture, every single cliffhanger, and every single typo that passed me by.

The bitching and wank of SimSecret always made me sick, but when it commented on my legacy in a way that made me feel like I was being left out of the 'famous group' or the 'cliques', I knew that whoever it was did like it, they just felt like they needed to embarass me in a way that I would feel like I wasn't part of the group over at boolProp.

Everyone, including the 'famous' authors started out with NO readers. None at all. Because, EVERYONE starts out with no readers; there isn't going to be someone sitting in the exchange or legacy stories thread waiting for you to start a legacy, because they won't know about. Everyone starts down at the bottom of the chain with no readers. It's an impersonal law of BoolProp; it doesn't matter whether how good your story is or not, or how good or bad of a person you are, no matter what, you are still going to have no readers in the beginning.

The readers and fame of a legacy is only the frosting and sprinkles; the cake and the cream is the story being told.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

That last line is a pretty good one. I like the frosting and sprinkles, but if it's on a cake that tastes like cardboard, what's the use?

Mmmm. Cake.

Anyway, I think you caught on to what's really necessary about putting out a well received story. Write well. :)

[tyleetwen.livejournal.com]

I'm always interested in discussions of Intarweb Fame. Not only is it highly specialized, like you said, it's also very fleeting. F'r instance, two years ago just about everyone on the WoW server I play on would have known who I was, and my guild read like the Silvermoon Server Walk of Fame. Our star has faded and these days, the only people who know who we are are other old-timers.

I do respect ANYONE willing to stick to such a long term story, and who is improving it with each iteration. It's way more than I've ever done, but then, I don't care for writing, and I have a strict "I only do things I enjoy in my free time" policy. :)

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely. I was in the high-end guild on my Everquest server. I was the one of the top three rogues on the server. Pretty much everyone on the server knew my name and plenty of people from other servers as well. The guild is still around, but when I look at the member list, I only recognize maybe two or three names out of dozens.

[leaths.livejournal.com]

I know you said something on Ruby's journal about typing out your thoughts on all of this and I've been looking forward to seeing what you had to say.

On the subject of cliques, for my part, I can understand where some of the sentiment is coming from. When I first joined boolprop and was feeling my way around, it often felt like there was some kind of "old guard" clique that was impossible to penetrate. I'm not saying anyone is to blame for it, or that anyone has done anything wrong, but I think that the prevalence of in-jokes and simself sharing leads people to that conclusion. It's a natural progression of building a group of friends and acquaintances, but it can be very intimidating to the new folks coming in. At least it was for me.

As I've been there longer and gotten more settled on what my place is in the boolprop scheme of things, it's easier to notice that what you said is true--there are always new faces moving in to the group and old faces are leaving. So it's very dynamic and not what anyone should call exclusive.

Well, that's not entirely true. It's exclusive in that the members in it are good. I'll admit that there are a couple of popular legacies around that I don't like, but I chalk it up to personal taste. Still, even the ones I don't enjoy have quality writing and you can tell that work goes into them. So, and I'm just spitballing here, it could be that some people see acceptance in to this group as a validation of the quality of there legacy. Does that make sense?

Another thing that comes to mind about the so-called boolprop clique is that I think there is a real sense among less popular writers that if they could just get certain people to notice their legacy then more readers will follow. And there is a lot of truth in that. But then I think that it is easy to go too far with that feeling and start being resentful of people for not noticing. I think that it can become personal and suddenly it's not that these people aren't noticing, it's that they're actively ignoring. Then you get resentment and jealousy.

Since I know I'm already getting all tl;dr here, I might as well keep the ball rolling. About the famous thing, it's really easy for people to forget that boolprop's not the whole world when these kids are spending ungodly amounts of time there and calling each other their "family." Frankly, I like quite a few people on boolprop quite a lot, but no body there is my family or anything remotely close. But when you give a place that kind of status in your mind, then becoming popular there is OMG IMPORTANT.

So while it's not just the kids there that might have these feelings about boolprop and cliques and being "famous," the adults know enough not to care that much. It's the kids, I think, that are turning it into SRS BZNS.

[dgjamie.livejournal.com]

I think you've just summed this up in a far less rambling and off topic way than I could :) I agree with pretty much all your points on this.

[fireflowersims.livejournal.com]

*nodnod* I agree with this a lot, too.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

I can see where the clique perception comes from too. I guess I've just been around in online communities for long enough to realize how most of the time it's not an actual reality. I've been involved in plenty of places where being an active, involved and decent contributing member of a community is all it takes to become part of the 'in crowd'. Real cliques certainly exist, but most of the time they're not as bad as someone thinks and certainly not as impenetrable.

You make a good point about people wanting to be part of the 'clique' because it's validation that their work is worthy. And that having certain authors notice your work is good advertising. I'll admit that when I find a new story I like, I hope my name being seen in the comments will help get them some new readers. (Of course, I also tend to PM everyone on my friends list and tell them 'YOU MUST READ THIS NOW! IT'S GOOD!' I'm not very sublte at all.)

What usually bothers me, though, are the people who try and get the popular authors to notice them without really putting any work into their story. Those are the ones that are usually missing the boat.

BUt, as you say, it's often the kids turning it into SRS BZNS.

[mmmfobbs.livejournal.com]

I think the key is to have an edible name. Candy and Toast, I mean who doesn't like candy and toast? Right? [/joke]

I'd type out all my thoughts too, but I hafta go to work. Thanks for starting the discussion, Orikes.

[toastsims.livejournal.com]

OH NOES you have discovered teh secret!!!! now you must die

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

Candy and Toast! It's what's for dinner.

Okay, that sounds more disturbing than I'd thought.

[toastsims.livejournal.com]

everything you said, pretty much... I don't know what this "drama" is and I don't think I want to know...

I think it bears repeating that suddenly having a large audience is bizarre and can be hard to deal with. I wonder how many of the people who claim to want "fame" would be prepared for the crap it entails.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

The drama is all rather silly. Stupid sim secret snarks. oooh. Alliteration.

I actually meant to reference your 'Writing More Goodly' tutorial because I think you handled addressing this pretty well in that too.

[smoothiesims.livejournal.com]

You said everything I would have, Ori. I emphatically agree with the point that you don't get popular overnight, as you know. You have to put yourself out there, keep going for a while just because you want to, and make connections with other people who will hopefully be interested and take a peek.

I think it's totally understandable for you to say that you would have given up by now if you didn't have the support group to encourage you to keep going, just because of how hard you say writing is for you. Who wants to go through all that agony only to have no one see it? You're not still doing it because you want to be popular, though, you're doing it because you want to make something nice for other people to enjoy and there is a huge, huge difference between the two.

That point kind of made me think of the days when I was writing for fictionpress.com. In the beginning I had no readers and it hurt me a bit, and I kept going out of sheer perseverance; I was going to finish that damn story if it was the last thing I did, just to say I could do it. It was only toward the end of it (and it was thirty-six substantial chapters long) that I began to pick up a fairly large audience, and even then, it wasn't as big a readership as some other stories there.

Would I have finished the Fitzhughs if De was still my only reader? Maybe. Again, just to say I could do it. But I don't know if I would have documented the apocalypse. So that's an interesting point.

Another point I thought was well made was the one where we would all list different people as part of the "group." I don't read all the same legacies, etc. that you all do, mainly because I just don't have the time. Recently, I started reading the Victorian Legacy, the Fairytale Legacy, and the Regacy, and I adore all three and think they're wonderful, but other than that I won't be adding any more stories to my reading list for a while. I can't even keep up with reviews on the ones that are already on it, which is something I'm not happy about but can't always help.

And another thing I've seen is that there's a noticeable difference between the Legacy community and the Apocalypse community. The Apocalypse folks seem to be pretty a pretty close-knit support group for each other, talking about the rules and commenting on all the other stories, which is great. But for me, I'm still firmly entrenched in the Legacy community because, like I said, I don't have the time to post in the Apoc threads very much (nor do I really have anything constructive to say) and I don't read all the stories like everyone else does. It's not a bad thing, really, just something I've noticed.

In short, all of this drama is stupid and I hope that it just dies down. People who expect to have their every whim catered to are just deluding themselves.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

There's only so much time in any given day to spend on the things I want to do rather than the things I have to do. Reading legacies is one of those things that I like to do, but there are only so many new ones I can add. It took me over two weeks to get through reading all of Di's Victorian Legacy. I've been slowly working on Gin's 'Science of a Legacy' as well, and I'm only about halfway through that one. I'm not against adding new ones, but it takes a while to get caught up.

Good point on the Apocalypse community as well. Whenever I've poked my head into their chat forum, it does seem very tight knit. I think the very nature of the challenge itself tends to breed a sense of brotherhood (or sisterhood ;).

[docnerd.livejournal.com]

*clap clap clap* Hear, hear!

Oddly, I think I'd still be writing if no one was reading. That's just what I do when I have a story to tell, as the volume of the folder marked "Fiction" on my hard drive would attest. For me, the writing was the easy part; the harder part was getting the hang of the picture aspect of things, because it was so different from anything I'd tried to do before, and telling a story with pictures is a different game than straight prose. It's one of the reasons I don't write my Legacy in a "prose" style. I certainly don't mind reading it from others, but it just feels a bit strange for me to do.

So I still mostly play/write for myself, but it does feel good to know that people out there like my story and my characters. I'm sure all authors feel that way.

The notion of a "clique" is still amusing. There's an overwhelming connotation of exclusivity there that simply doesn't exist. You want to be "famous?" Write a good story. Post around, read others' stories and comment on them, and have something interesting to say. It's like Field of Dreams. If you write it (a good story), they will come. Sometimes it takes a while; I think Di said she updated for about 5 months before she got regular readers. It was about two for me, and I think that's short for a new Legacy by an unknown author.

With luck, it's all died down now. There didn't seem to be any "famous boolprop author" wank this week. Although my avatar creeps some people out, so HOORAY!

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

I've rarely been able to write just for the sake of writing. I have to have some sort of end product in mind. I suppose the distinction is very nebulous, since writing for the sake of writing still produces a story or whatever. Still. I had fallen in love with legacies about ten months before I finally attempted to write my own.

The avatar secret was awesome. :)

[robinoli.livejournal.com]

This pretty much sums it up. We ALL started out with little to no readers. When I did my apocalypse I had somewhere around three regular readers. It was a big surprise to me when I got so many comments on my first legacy chapter, and honestly, I think I have to credit a lot of my "popularity" to Toast--she put me in Uranium's BC, and a day or two after it finished, I put up my first Darlings chapter.

Early on in the legacy, though, I still only had a smallish group of regular readers. I kind of preferred it, honestly. That's not to say I don't love getting a lot of comments, but it feels a lot less like work when less people read. It feels more like creating something to entertain your friends.

I don't get the people who whine about how they want to be "popular." You play because you like to play and write because you like to write. Those kind of people make it seem like they don't enjoy playing or reading and just want a huge following.

[robinoli.livejournal.com]

*playing or writing, not playing or reading

But I guess both ways work...

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I bet you're right on Toast putting you in the BC as beeing a boost for your readership. I'd seen you around on boolprop, but that was about it. By the time Darlings came out, I knew your name enough from that to pop it open and give it a try.

Having a large readership does bring its own problems. I'm also constantly getting guestbook signings wanting me to update ASAP. Heck, today I had one demanding that I finish the BC right away because I was killing them with suspense. I know the author didn't mean any harm, but it's still pretty intimidating if you take it even remotely serious.

[writeraissa.livejournal.com]

Guess I'm not quite 'famous' enough, then. I rarely get GB signings except from the crazies. Like the one in all caps the other day that I think was asking how to use placeholders. But I don't read all caps very well so I can't be sure.

Or the other one that asked if they could have my legacy family because that would be 'fair'.

[cori-chronicles.livejournal.com]

Right on!

[dicreasy.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with about everything you've said here, and just want to add my two penny's worth on a couple of points.

The perceived 'fame' really is incredibly localised, even within the storytelling community. Just looking at the responses to the secrets over the last few weeks, a lot of the people reading them hadn't heard of the 'famous' legacies or writers that were being mentioned. Also I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't tend to get GB signings, all the feedback I get is at Boolprop.

I actually don't think of myself as famous and in fact found the secret that used my banner rather funny.

I really do write because I enjoy it, not for fame. It irks me somewhat to read some of the comments on Boolprop about wanting more readers and how to become more popular. I read a new thread the other day where the author was thinking about stopping writing after 10 days because they had only 5 commentators. That made me angry. As Doc says I didn't get my first regular commentator until Michelle started commenting 4 months and 6 chapters after I started publishing it, and it wasn't until 2 months later that Gin, Patrick, Angela, Aphrodita and more started to comment. The fact that this person seemed to think that they should have lots of readers for a new legacy just got to me.

I also agree that, conversely, the support of readers in invaluable. I would still be writing without my readers because I can be an obstinate cow at times and I have a story to tell, but I wouldn't be writing as quickly, and certainly would not be putting out a BC chapter a week. I am not a naturally creative person, and I have to work damn hard at it. Reading that people enjoy and appreciate the effort that I put in makes me want to continue to make that effort.

Now onto the subject of cliques at Boolprop. It is only relatively recently that I have become aware of what I would refer to as a clique, and it's not the one that the secret makers etc are whining about. I'm not going to say any more about it, because, well there's no need.

My experience with the 'famous' authors is that they are very friendly, and always willing to speak to anyone and help if they can. I certainly don't see an exclusive club amongst the more popular writers.

I think it's also worthwhile re-emphasising that the writers that are perceived to be members of this exclusive and famous clique have been around Boolprop for quite a while, so they have had the opportunity to speak to quite a few of the members and get their names out there if you like.

Wow, that turned into quite a comment, but you have raised some very interesting points I wanted to put forward my views on.

[ahrubyblue.livejournal.com]

I'll just throw this out there for the sake of discussion. I don't think it's entirely fair to say that there's no exclusivity at all among the more popular writers. It's all in the way it's perceived. Take the secret that accused of "jerking each other off". Ori was only looking to illustrate her point with examples. Naturally she drew on examples from legacies that she reads (because she's not all-knowing and what else is she going to do?). That could be (and apparently was) seen as being exclusive. She didn't mean it that way but that's the way it was perceived.

[dgjamie.livejournal.com]

And plenty of people she hadn't cited responded anyway didn't they? It's not as if she were directing that question only at the people who were cited, plenty of other people chipped in.

[ahrubyblue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, and that's why I don't think it really is exclusive. But I think a lot of people see Ori as sort of Legacy Queen Bee or something and think of her opinions and/or regard as more meaningful because of it. The perception is the thing that rules the reality. We don't perceive it as such.

[ahrubyblue.livejournal.com]

I wish there were secret meetings. I be there'd be bon bons and attractive fan wavers and fun things like that.

*has nothing important to add to the discussion*
I agree wholeheartedly with what you wrote and I also want to nod along with Lea too.

[writeraissa.livejournal.com]

If we have secret meetings, can I bring nachos?

[ahrubyblue.livejournal.com]

If you don't then the secret meetings will be very unfortunately nacho-less and I don't think we want that. No amount of cake I bring will make people forget it. So, yes. In fact, now you're obligated.

[orikes13.livejournal.com]

Mmmm. Nachos. And bon bons. It sounds like heaven.

[jengagne.livejournal.com]

I have no intelligent comment to make, but this post and the replies have been a really interesting read!

[rcubical.livejournal.com]

Well, I'll make this short:

What I've noticed is that people who want to be "famous" through their stories usually never become "famous". The people who have a good idea in their head and enjoy writing become "famous". There's your magic formula; play and write because you want to play and write.

Drive-by commenting from ladylarkrune on boolprop.com

[leilia.livejournal.com]

I think that you and your commentators make a lot of good points.

From my experience with secrets communities most of them are nearly as cliquish as the people they claim are insular.

What I see as a newbie to boolprop.com is a group of authors who mutually respect each others work and pimp it so that others can read it. And there is nothing wrong with that. So far my experience has been totally positive, and while I worry about being seen as the creepy stalker fangirl (not helping my cause here), I have also seen that the "Big Name Writers" treat all of their fans with respect. Or at least that is how it appears.

I come from a fanfiction background and am a mod on Mediaminer.com and have been a part of the community since 1995. In some circles, I am seen as a lackey to some of the BNFs or one myself. I have had my fiction praised and pimped and it has won awards. But not one piece of fiction I have published has paid a bill or put food in my mouth. On mediaminer, the mods are constantly asked "How do I get reviews?" and I want to go "If you are writing for reviews/praise, then you are writing for the wrong reasons." I've found that the stories with the highest reader/review count tend to have a sort of holy trinity behind them and I feel this applies to sims story writing as well:

1. The story is well written. This is a biggie. If it is rife with errors you are going to get a lot of people hitting the back button.

2. It has a good hook/pairing/plotline. This is what gets people coming back. You can have a great start but if you don't keep 'em coming back for more you aren't going to get the feedback.

3. The authors are all active in some way in their fandom/community. This includes reviewing other fiction themselves, being a beta/sounding board, running a community, or even running a contest/challenge.

If you do these things you tend to get readers.

The sad thing is that people come to communities to become BNFs (Big Name Fans) or Popular on teh Interwebz. I can't fathom that at all. I only join those communities that I have an interest, and then, I only comment when I feel I have something to say. The only reason I joined boolprop was to comment on the sims stories that I enjoyed because I didn't think it was fair of me not to leave a review where if it were a fanfic, I would have done so.

The whole clique thing, yeah I can see it on a very superficial level, but when you really look at it. However, After being on the site for a week, I can tell you the clique is a lie.

(Edit to fix Picture)

[lauriempress.livejournal.com]

Having dealt with this clique idea in several online posting sites, I laugh and shake my head every time it comes up in this context. In boolprop I think it's even more outrageous. This has to be one of the most open and sharing communities I have ever seen. New people are welcomed, and their opinions respected by even the most "respected" writers/mods on the site. I think that is a key as well, rather than fame there is quite a bit of respect among a rather large group of writers that work hard in their spare time to share what they love. A respect that is mutual and earned. And earned through the trenches by working on writing, working on picture taking, and by taking time to read other people's work and offering helpful comments and advice. The short pats on the back are nice and appreciated but what I as a contributor like most is when people comment on what they like or didn't like and suggestions on how to approve.

If someone comes to me asking about how to get reviews or readers, I tell them basically what has been said here. Come up with a story you enjoy and care about. Make the characters real. Work on making your updates the best they can be. Not every chapter is going to be a pearl but at least make certain that it makes you smile even a little before you send it out. And never forget to read other people's work and let them know when they're doing a good job, and what specifically it was that you enjoyed. Don't tear people down, build people up. And always put your heart into it, and remember that it should be *fun*. If it ever becomes all work and no fun, well to quote Sher Kahn, ur doin it rong. (lol I hope I spelled that right I'm not much into lolcat but it seemed to fit)

Personally, like most people, I enjoy the comments it means that people cared enough about my work to tell me what they thought good, bad, or ugly. However, I write because I love to write and I have a story I want to share. It's almost a need to write and share. So I would write without comments and I do, but yes they are something that keeps a writer enthused about his/her projects.

Gah I'm babbling again, but this is a topic I've always felt strongly about. I feel that a lot of people that use the clique word are trolls just wanting to cause troubles. Some I think really want to be a part of the community but they've tried to sneak under the fence rather than use the gate. If they treat people with the respect they want for themselves, they'd find themselves welcomed. At least that's my perspective.

I don't consider everyone on boolprop family or friends. Comrades perhaps, we are all members of a community with a shared interest, Sims2. There are a few members I consider friends. People I've spoken to quite often and shared things with. Probably not my best friends, but friends nonetheless. The "famous" ones I consider almost like colleagues, because we are doing the same thing, creating something and sharing it with others. We're not trying to be famous we're just enjoying ourselves and trying to share some of that enjoyment with others.

Okay now I've babbled too much, but I did want to say thank you for posting this Orikes, what I read here makes me feel even better about choosing Boolprop. And I think that might be another key, you don't choose cliques, cliques choose you. In boolprop you bring yourself into a group or groups when you start to interact with the others. And that's what I like about it.

Lauri